Job Search & Interview Tips for Law Students

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Video Transcript:

Hi, my name is Miles Mason. I’ve been a family lawyer, self-employed for over 25 years. I’ve interviewed lots of law students. I’ve talked with law students about advice. I’ve yelled at law students for not knowing how to interview one damn bit. I’m going to go over some of the advice I’ve given them over the years, and maybe you will get value out of it. If you do, like it, share it with your buddies on social media. I would appreciate it.

LinkedIn

Now, let’s get started. Number one, LinkedIn. Get your LinkedIn together. Have a superstar headshot. All right. What is a superstar headshot? A headshot that’s done by a professional photographer that projects the image and personality that you want to project. Don’t worry about it being perfect, but the photography is important.

If you’re a woman, have the makeup the way you want it. If you don’t know how to do your makeup for a photo shoot, pay somebody. Your image on Facebook, LinkedIn, social media, needs to be consistent and professional. The other thing you need to be working on LinkedIn is your connections. You know people that you’re not connected to. It’s business, and the more people that you have connections with the better.

Connect on LinkedIn

Sign up to connect with people that you want to meet. Send them a message. Ask them to lunch. You’re a law student. People will talk to you, and the people that don’t talk to you, fine. Who cares? They’re not likely to hire you anyway. It’s somewhat of a self-filtering process.

Create Content on LinkedIn

Now, the tricky part, if you want to go to an advanced PhD level at this, create some content for LinkedIn. Maybe copy and paste something that you wrote in law school. Look up a series of video topics. Write 500 words on your comment on somebody else’s legal theory about X, Y, and Z. It don’t matter. Write something. Comment on other people’s posts.

Shotgun or Rifle Approach to Job Search?

And we’re going to talk about, do you use a rifle approach or a shotgun approach about chasing down specific firms? But if you do, and you have identified some firms that you’re interested in pursuing, find some of the lawyers and some of the articles that they either have on LinkedIn, their website, their blog, whatever. Make a comment. Hey, I like this. I learned A, B and C. I wouldn’t worry so much about asking a question because they’re lawyers and it may take them weeks to see it, but the bottom line is you can get on people’s radar screens by liking and commenting what they put out.

Call Lawyers for Lunches

Ask for lunches and advice. I’m always amazed by how many third-year law students at the University of Memphis who are interested in family law, never call me up and ask me to take them to lunch. I’m glad to do it. And you can do that through LinkedIn, super easy. Ask to connect with them. If they say yes, if you want to put in there that you’re a third-year law student looking for work, fine. If they connect with you, great. If they don’t, who cares?

Ask for Recommendations on LinkedIn

Also on your LinkedIn, I would definitely get a couple of recommendations, so if you clerked for somebody or you just bled for somebody in a job where you did a hard task, you did it well, ask them to recommend you on LinkedIn. Ask them to be honest, not so flowery. When I’ve got somebody coming to see me, I have other people vet their social media. And I don’t care about a beer in front of a keg at a law school event. I mean, I went to those. But I’m looking to see is the LinkedIn a detail that they’re willing to pay attention to? I’m going to look at it. I’m going to look at their connections, and most importantly, I’m going to look at and triangulate, who do we have in common? And if it’s somebody I’m close with, I may call them. So, that joint connection thing can really make a big difference.

Get Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable

Next piece of advice, get comfortable with being uncomfortable. You’re going to get rejected a lot more than you’re going to get hired, and I know that’s hard. I hated the concept of walking out of an interview knowing I wasn’t going to get a follow up call. I had a super high class rank. I had my certified public accountant license. I had it all, and I still got rejected from the big firms. Totally rejected. Now, that cannot stop you from maximum effort. If you want to be in big law, then you’re going to have to pound your head against the walls for a bunch of different spots. If you’re a superstar third-year and you already got your federal clerkship lined up and you know where you’re going to work because you’ve already networked this, you ain’t watching this video anyway.

Get comfortable with rejection and losing. One of Gary Vaynerchuk’s big phrases that you hear in a lot of his videos, “You got to love losing. If you don’t love losing, you’ve already lost.” Nothing applies more to that than interviewing for a law job.

Research the Interviewers

Now, let’s talk about some specific interview techniques and tactics. Number one, and I’d say only 5% of the law students that interview with me do this, and that is research the person who’s most likely going to lead the interview process.

I’ve got a small firm with 12 people. You’re going to most likely interview with me at some point, right? Well, read my personal and professional biography on the website. Look to see on LinkedIn if we connect with me and once you connect, you can look at my connections. See if we’ve got somebody in common. Maybe we have neighbors, who knows? But research the person and know who you’re talking to and with. What are their subspecialties? Have they been in leadership positions in the bar? What is that person proud of? Odds are what they’re proud of, they put in their bio.

Small Talk: Kids, Causes & Passions

Now it also dovetails into conversation. If you’re going to have a conversation with a lawyer, how do you do it? What are your topics? It’s real simple. Same thing with anybody in business. Causes, kids, passions. Not necessarily in that order. I will always tell you what my kids are doing and what they’re up to, because I like bragging on them. And when I have grandkids, I’m going to carry around a folio. I’m not going to pull out my phone. I’m going to pull out hard pictures and just shove them in people’s faces.

My causes are very simple. I like doing community service, and I’ve got a long history of doing that, and I’m doing it now. So I’ll be glad to tell you about that. As far as passions, the super simple, easy passion to talk about with somebody is travel. If you’re a law student and you haven’t traveled anywhere, fine, ask the other person about their travel.

Travel is Good, Too.

If you got to backpack and hang out in hostels in the UK and in Germany, there’s plenty to talk about. So travel’s an easy one. But, there are some people who don’t like to travel, so don’t spend too much time worrying about that.

Why Chit Chat Matters

Back to the interview. Being able to chitchat about nothing is a skill in and of itself, because if you’ve already gotten in the door, some interviewers, some employers will think you’re already smart enough, or they wouldn’t be interviewing you. So they don’t have to test your cerebral horsepower. You’ve already done that and showed your discipline and focus by your grades and your track record of academics.

Go on YouTube for Videos on Common Interview Questions & Prepare your Answers

Now, when it comes to questions that you are going to be asked in interviews, search the internet, there are tons of videos on questions you know you need to have to answer, and work up a damn answer them, so when you get asked, you’re not thinking, you’re just performing.

No Humble Bragging

Number one tip of this video. No humble bragging. What they’re looking for in a question like that is self-awareness. And self-awareness is you don’t know what you’re doing practicing law yet, because you haven’t practiced law for one second. That’s being self-aware in my book. Does that make any sense? I hope so.

Action Plan for Tough Questions

All right. So for the tough questions, the ones that you’re going to be on the fence with, the ones that are designed to put you on your heels, have an action plan. Study the videos, write down the questions, have a note card. Maybe carry them with you. Look at them in the lobby before you go through.

My Favorite Interview Question

One of my questions that I think is totally fair, but unscripted in most people is, what’s your favorite movie of all time?  Okay, I’m going to judge you based on your answer, but more importantly, I’m going to judge you based on the reasoning for your answer. And if you give me a relatively recent movie, I’m going to knock off points for that. If it’s a comedy and that’s your favorite movie of all time, okay.

If you drop Citizen Kane on me, you better have a good understanding of the sub themes of Citizen Kane, or you’re just dropping that so you can sound like you know what you’re doing about film. Hopefully that makes sense. If you haven’t watched Citizen Kane, I do recommend you watch it before engaging in a law career, for a lot of different reasons. Know what your favorite movie is, be prepared to defend it and be prepared to argue with the lawyer interviewing you. Duh, I want to see the machinations. I want to see you engage. I want to see you in conflict.

Energy, Empathy & Self-awareness

I think for the low-conflict interview, when you find yourself there, you want to have energy. You want to have thoughtfulness. You want to show some empathy for others, in general, self-awareness. I hope that makes sense. You get a chance to put everything on display in a creative, thoughtful manner.

High-Conflict High-Stress Interviews

For high-conflict interviews, I say, go with it, be high conflict back. Do what you need to do to show that you’re willing, able, and capable of thinking on a three dimensional plane, especially if you’re talking about litigation. If you fail in the high-conflict environment, fine, you’re unlikely to succeed there.

In a way, the high-conflict interview is very, very helpful because it’s very self-filtering. The worst-case scenario for both employer and young lawyer is a bad fit. You don’t want to be working in the wrong firm for a year or two, if you can help it. I think the high-conflict interview is very beneficial to that process.

For example, if you come into my office and you’ve got a background, major or minor in economics, I’m going to ask you, tell me the three ways the federal government through the fed, manipulates the money supply. If you can’t answer that question, and you have some kind of background in economics, you’re in trouble. If I can’t get you to explain the Laffer curve to me in under three minutes or two minutes, when it’s in Ferris Bueller’s Day Off, that’s bad.

Like and Um

So yes, look for your high conflict question, enjoy it, lean into it and crush it because it’s a great opportunity. One of the other things, and this is real obvious, but it’s a big pet peeve of mine is obviously people that say “like” and “um” too much. So what’s your favorite movie? Um, no, lawyers don’t say um unless it’s for dramatic effect, don’t love the um answer. If you can work on it, try to eliminate that from your vocabulary.

More on Rifle or Shotgun

As far as looking for work, should you have a rifle approach where you’re targeting a few firms and really working hard on making network connections within those firms, or should you do a shotgun approach and apply it to everybody and their cousin? My answer is both. Yes, do both. You’ve got to put a lot of effort into this process for a lot of different reasons, you don’t need me to explain.

But yes, I would definitely work hard at making sure if there’s even a hint of an open position that my paperwork’s in front of them. See if I can LinkedIn with the legal administrator, with the head of hiring, something. Scour the internet or the website for that firm find the hiring committee, if it’s on their blah, blah, blah, attack, attack, attack, attack any open position. But also target a few firms that you find most interesting, and see if you can make some connections in that firm. Pay is not always the end all, be all of building your skillsets for the future.

That being said, finding the right environment for you is something only you can do. Nobody can give you a hack on it one way or the other. So my recommendation is pick a few firms and really do a deep dive on your networking or connections, try to get a foot in the door as soon as you hear about an opening somewhere else, just knocking down the door to try to get in and see them. Do not just sit and rely on your career services people at the law school. That’s ridiculous.

Three Books I Recommend on Mind Set

Now, we’re going to go over some tips for getting your mind set right. There are three books I recommend you read. First, Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Almost all success coaches that are in existence that you’ve heard of or not heard of that have the best-selling books and are on YouTube and this and that, have traced their lineage to Napoleon Hill. And last time I looked, there were some really good Napoleon Hill videos. It’s black and white, it’s back in the day, but the core concepts of knowledge, networking, marketing yourself, putting yourself out there, it’s all packaged slightly differently than what Gary Vaynerchuk or Tim Ferris or Tony Robbins may say in 2020, they’re just using different terms. But the core concepts of get out there, hustle, hustle, hustle, meet people, shake hands, do what you got to do. And when I say shake hands, it means work rooms.

How do you learn how to work a room? You go work a room. It’s not that complicated. I had to teach myself. I had to actively go out to dinners and events and fundraisers and learn how to work a room. Who do I need to meet? Can I manufacture a way to meet them?

All right, second book. I love 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. Super simple. A lot of the major themes are self-awareness and figuring out what is dominance and how do you project confidence? And one of your jobs as a lawyer is to be supremely confident in your place in the world. Again, I’m not saying you have to be an advisor to a congressman on regulations in the electronics industry. I’m talking about whatever you’re doing, you need to work very hard at being an expert at that and projecting that expertise. And if that means you’re a first-year associate, and you’ve just read everything there is to learn about a particular UCC section, fine. Project confidence in your knowledge, but not too much.

Now, the next book has nothing to do with this per se, but I do love Extreme Ownership by Jocko Willink. For a couple of different reasons. Number one, your career is in your hands. If you don’t believe that, I can’t help you. I don’t have time or the ability to explain how you are in control of your own life better than Jocko does. Jocko’s a former Navy SEAL, you may have heard of the book. You may have seen him on YouTube, but definitely extreme ownership applies perfectly to the law practice. I lose cases, I lose arguments, I lose motions, that’s when I learn.

First Years of Practicing Law Suck Bad

Couple other tips. One, your first two years of practicing law are going to suck. They’re going to suck bad. Because you don’t know what you don’t know, and as you get older and more experienced, you know what you don’t know. And once you know what you don’t know, you know where to go look it up or who to ask, and you got a better network.

I’ve been practicing family law for 25 years. I still get on the phone with lawyers across the country that I know from the ABA family law section and ask their opinion on things. And nothing makes me feel more humble than when I get a call from another lawyer that’s been practicing as long as I have or older, asking me for my opinion.

So just understand that the process of going through law school, taking the exam, passing the exam, getting a job does not mean that the sucking ends. In fact, some people would say it sucks the most.

Amy Landino

If you’re a woman, I really love Amy Landino’s channel for you. I would definitely take a look at some of her routines and some of her discussions about business and giving you some tips about organizing your day, organizing your morning, whatever. The only reason I wouldn’t give some of that advice, hey, I’m not Amy, and that’s not really what I talk about. But I think there’s great advice in there for men as well.

Posture

Now, also check out Amy Cuddy’s video on posture. I think that’s a huge mistake going into interviews, not having good posture. I don’t have good posture. I’ve never had good posture. I work on it. I don’t always succeed. Posture is very important for nonverbal communication.

Shined Shoes Sends a Message

Also, I would highly recommend, and this is going to sound odd. But for men and women, shine your shoes the night before an interview. Get into the routine of paying attention to the details. I notice who has shined shoes. I notice on women, if their shoes are scuffed or they haven’t taken care of them, or they don’t have a pair of interviewing shoes ready to go.

It’s About Details

As a third-year law student, you’re expected to know the details that you need to take care of and take care of them. And for men, it’s a 15, 20 minute process, but what you’re going to find, turn the sound down, maybe look at some YouTube videos about shoe shining or interviewing or whatever, get your mind right the day before your interviews. Your shoes are a window to yourself esteem, in my opinion. And I think if you interview with anybody that was in the military, they’re going to notice.

Myers-Briggs and Personality Testing

New topic, Myers Briggs and personality testing. So look around the internet. If you don’t know what the Myers-Briggs is, take a look at it. Watch some interviews. There’s even a couple of videos out there about matching personalities with different types of practice of law. I don’t know about any of that, but I do know that there are some firms out there that pay attention to personality testing, and they may ask you to do a personality test. It may be Myers-Briggs or some other similar type tests.

Now, is Myers-Briggs junk science? Probably. The problem is, what else have we got? Many firms are looking for ISTJ and that’s fine. ISTJs are certainly some of the most productive in terms of billable hours and other things that exist, and should you try to reverse engineer your answers on a test to match up with ISTJ or some other type of personality type? I don’t think so.

I think you should be looking at your job interview process as being somewhat self-filtering. What I mean by that is, you should want to work with a firm who wants you to work with the firm, kind of like dating. Because you’re going to put a fair amount of money into this relationship, both in terms of networking, emotion, physical energy, obviously over time. So my advice is be yourself, answer the personality test the way that you want to answer it in terms of what is really you? Who are you? Be you during the process. Be the ball, Danny. Meaning when you have a choice between who you really are and who you think you need to project that you are, choose yourself every time.

Couple of different reasons. One, half of what you got to do is demonstrate some sense of self awareness, but also understand you’re going to change and be a different person after you’ve been practicing law for a while. That’s normal. Most likely you’re going to be a little more jaded 10 years from now, but also that you want to be unique and different and stand out.

You need to be able to be memorable. And if you can be memorable for a quirk or a uniqueness that’s not harmful of society, do it. And if they’re testing you for personality, it’s only because there’s nothing else to do. I may repeat that if they’re testing your personality or trying to pigeonhole you in a particular Myers-Briggs box, you’re not going to know what they’re looking for.

Let me give you an example. In my firm, we’re chock-full of introverts, chock-full. We’re up to here with introverts, including me. I want to hire extroverts. So if you were trying to game the system, by getting into my firm, by acting like an introvert, you’re actually going to hurt yourself. I don’t need other people like me. I hope that makes some sense.

So don’t try to out guess what people are trying to do. Don’t try to reverse engineer who you are for that meeting. Now, also in terms of what you play up and in your resume and your application.

Greek?

One of the big questions I get is should I play up my Greek experience? I think so for two reasons. One, it shows you can multitask because very few people are Greek that don’t spend time being Greek. And it’s a big thing in the South. But also with that Greek experience comes fundraising, comes volunteering, community service venues. That’s what you want to play up for obvious reasons. And allow yourself to be self-filtered.

If somebody is interviewing you and going to discount you because you’re Greek, fine, they’re doing you a favor. Because to me, when I talk to young people, I say, “Always go Greek if you get a choice,” because it gives you a reason to do two things, one, meet new people, and that’s always good. Meeting new people is always good. But B, it helps teach you how to get along with people you don’t like, especially if it’s a big fraternity or sorority, there’s going to be plenty of people you don’t like because that’s the nature of things. As long as you got something to do on campus, I don’t really care what it is, do something.

Wacky Lawyers

Another tip. Be prepared for wacky personalities. You’re going to run into some lawyers who are just insane. And I’m not going to go into some examples, but their interests are very specific, they’re very obscure, and I’m not just talking about antiques, I’m talking about just all over the board. And there’s a lot of different reasons for that. And we can talk about that at a different time, but be prepared for the wacky personality, and don’t be afraid to ask them about the wackiness. Steer into it, don’t run away from it. Again, be you.

Be You

I’ve said this before, we’re going to restate this for emphasis. As you go through the hiring process and the interviews, you’re going to have moments in time, and when you’ve got a battle between, do you try to look, think, act, talk like the ideal candidate or being you? My advice is, be you. Again, what you’re trying to demonstrate is self-awareness, your cerebral horsepower comes through on your grades, and your manner. Your level of confidence, your self-esteem, your posture, those types of things.

Gary Vee

One of my favorite people is Gary Vaynerchuk. Gary has a saying for entrepreneurs, “Hiring is guessing. Firing is knowing.” If there was from the employer, the law firm’s perspective, a perfect test, a perfect analysis, a perfect formula for ferreting out their particular ideal candidate, we would all know what it is. The answer is, there isn’t one.

Thick Skin

For lawyers, the practice of law, a legal profession, learning to have thick skin starts now. Be prepared to lose, be prepared to be rejected, be prepared to fail. You will succeed. The grind starts now. Build the life you want to build. Do what you have to do. Find the time and emotional energy to worry about this process because it matters. It matters right now because you need to get the experience and develop the skills that you want to develop to achieve your long-term goals.

Long-term Goals Change

Your long-term goals will change over time. That’s a given. Don’t worry about that, but don’t let the simple stuff get in the way of getting where you want to be. And what I’m telling you is getting where you want to be takes effort. It’s a grind. It’s a process. Find a way to enjoy it and learn about yourself and how you react to failure, rejection and losing. If you can manage that, you can manage anything.

Read Miles Mason, Sr.’s personal and professional biography.